@ Daisy: Can they wrestle with it on their own? Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. CALVIN!, The Bible? Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. I tend to doubt it but who knows. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. CALVIN! A Word to My Calvinist Friends. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. Declarations of faith. I don't get him and he doesn't get me but we can still try to love and respect one another. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Maybe it isnt. What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? This is also (imo) true for many, many people. But I do believe in TULIP and the majority of the WCF- what label should I use to communicate that when people are interested? Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . Theyre like rival sects of Muslims in Iraq & Syria. Never mind those 2400+ pages of Perfectly-Parsed Theology also stem from the same base assumptions about God as Mohammed that Gods Omnipotent Will overrides everything else about God, never mind physical reality. But I urge you to be careful in trying to correct what you see as a misunderstanding especially if the person you are correcting has dealt with abuse. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. I used try but I have given up. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. G. Campbell Morgan 16. Baptist commentaries are the work of scholars and pastors who have served and ministered within the Baptist branch of the Christian faith. But are *we* the measure of truth? Now I believe it and I think its what scripture teaches, but how in the world can it be necessary and central to the Gospel if the church didnt even think about it in earnest for 1500 years? These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. How wonderful to remember those days! I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. And I agree with this. The promises are over the top. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. Feels your pain with you. Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. So Sad. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. @ Daisy: Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). We are very clear that we do not see men as the only abusers nor abuse inherently a gender issue. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. Do arminians believe in salvation through faith? You seem to know the internal workings of God which amazes me. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? An infant does not want, nor desire steak. @ JeffB: Confused? His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. But are *we* the measure of truth? When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). YOU are never in a position to disagree or agree with their orthodoxy. [deleted] 6 yr. ago. So many have been through one form of abuse or another and have needs that we should allow for, beyond social norms. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. That was pretty much the last straw for me. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world.. If Im wrong, I apologize. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. This is simply human and not related to social faux pas. @ Steve D: They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? So, I disagree with your choice of word infantilised because in my example Im talking about giving someone hurting exactly what they need (emotionally/spiritually) at the precise time they need it just like breastmilk. I gotta second numos motion. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Do you believe that God could not stop you if he wished? Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. All of the people Ive met who have TAUGHT about Calvinism are clear on the definition, though. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. There are many bite marks on my tongue. Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. Thanks for taking my comment in the way I intended. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. It was you! However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Im not saying that they are incapable of making the mistake, but, since you say that this is what many people come away with, it could be that they communicated it poorly. Their approach goes like this: You heretic! My Top 42 Arminian Theologians/Preachers | Worldly Saints Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. As you know, it was not written by Calvin. Holds you and strokes the back of your head. I.E. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. It is only required that we do not demean each other while in argument. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. * Okay, end of sermon. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws.